The Cult Thing
(This is Part 2 of the Xenos-Cult Controversy – read Part 1 here.)
Ok, I promised to reveal the secret “insider information” that explains the Xenos-Cult controversy, since it keeps burbling in the background…
But first! Consider some other ways to explain the Xenos-Cult phenomena.
Strict Doctrines?
I ran across this “Church Discipline” Web site where the owner/moderator is trying his best to figure it out. He’s a critical thinker, and objective, but he’s working in the dark without any firsthand experience with Xenos. He ran into some bizarre stories which led him to research Xenos, and he initially finds Xenos has “a rather strict doctrine on right and wrong,” and then says:
[Xenos] publishes on its website heavily on the issue of church discipline. They make use of shunning and excommunication and are fairly strict for a mega-church. (Source: CD-Host, Breaking Away Case Study)
Naturally, I’m surprised that Xenos “publishes heavily on church discipline,” so I lookup the links he gives: one is from the Christian Principles Class (CPC), and the other is a policy paper on leadership and authority. Although he reached a more positive conclusion later (in Part 1), I just couldn’t believe Xenos was starting to get “strict” …
“CD-Host” probably didn’t realize the CPC handout is one of hundreds given to leaders-in-training enrolled in those courses, so it’s a rather miniscule part of the coursework (maybe 1%). The paper simply reviews what the Bible says about church discipline. (If a church can’t even study the Bible’s view of church discipline for 1% of its leadership training without being too “strict” these days, what’s happening with Christianity?)
The “Leadership and Authority” paper also is a rather minor blip on the fat Xenos.org Web of hundreds (?) of gigs. It addresses a specific problem in a specific ministry (students), which seems like a responsible way to prevent abuse. But the paper contains some ominous-sounding language which I think raises some concerns:
The elders have reviewed the paper, and have affirmed these findings as accurately reflecting Xenos policy. This paper can be freely disseminated as members see fit. (Source: on leadership and authority, Xenos Web.)
Kids--these Xenos clowns need more rules, I say!
It reads like a dictum of monumental portent (i.e. important): they “affirmed these findings,” so judgment was pronounced with solemn consideration, to be “disseminated as members see fit.” I glanced askance and immediately recognized the ugly, mismatched colors used on the Web page: it was the work of my colorblind brother, Dennis.
As his wiser-but-younger-brother, I know Den is a pretty nice feller lots of the time, but he’s also rather humorless (Den got all the brains, and I got all the fun-loving traits). Den gets all portentous sometimes when he’s alone in the office, late at night (with his little pet: a 30-year-old turtle he takes out of the aquarium occasionally to exercise across his desk).
And then I understand why CD said Xenos sounds “rather strict” – Den needs to revisit that page in the daylight when he isn’t alone with his turtle, and lighten up a little!
Hello, Den? You listening?
Actually, we get in trouble at Xenos with other churches because we’re too damn loose! Xenoids will cuss, drink, party, go to bars (even raves!), dance, smoke, and carry-on like heathens sometimes—they don’t seem strict in the least.1 Now that I’m 50+ years old, it’s a little embarrassing when they act that way, and I catch myself chiding them, “Now children, settle down there…” (They laugh.)
I wouldn't describe Xenos as "strict"...
But I think CD could easily get the “strictness” impression from Den’s paper—I would say on Den’s behalf, if you consider 30 years of publishing, that paper seems fairly insignificant. The overwhelming repository of Bible teachings are focused on a very unusual (and refreshing) emphasis on God’s grace and forgiveness at Xenos. You’ll find Xenos isn’t rule-driven at all, and instead teaches a love-oriented, principle-driven ethic which isn’t so black-and-white.
Read all about Love Ethics, which I’ve been publishing over at the NeoZine, and especially Building a Love Ethic which demonstrates a very non-strict ethic operative at Xenos, I think.
Shunning?
CD used the term “shunning” to describe church discipline. I laughed, because I pictured the Amish ritual where everyone turns their backs on someone they kick out.
The "Lost Art of Shunning"
But now I see the term is now applied to any “excommunication” by various religions, and I’m a little surprised by that: it was a spooky ritual once. But as I read the Wikipedia article, I’m amazed at how the Postmodern world gets away with putting all religions in the same basket.
The original practice of Shunning – and the term still carries that taint – arises from an irrational fear of the real world (i.e. modern world) by separatists and cultish-groups. I wouldn’t want to be called a “Shunner” by anyone—it means you’re close-minded, scared, uptight, and very coercive.
Why does the U.S. Constitution guarantee the right to “Shun” then? It’s the First Amendment—it gives right to practice “Freedom of association” as you see fit. The freedom to associate means “I prefer this group, not that group.” It means groups have the right to determine their own distinctive character, without harassment.
To "associate" or not? Its a basic right--for good reasons, too!
Why are religious groups singled-out as “Shunners”, but not the Democrats and Republicans? You can’t join both parties, you know, they won’t let you—Republicans can’t infiltrate Democrat headquarters (except at night, with White House approval, of course!).
I’ve seen lots of people get kicked out of bars over the years—far more roughly and hurtful than anything I’ve seen at Xenos! Why doesn’t someone open a blog about Bar-Discipline?
I’m being facetious, of course, but the point is obvious: When someone is disturbing the peace, Xenos like any other group on the planet has the right to take steps to ensure the peace and safety of the assembly. When someone wants to redefine your group, they should leave peacefully and go start their own group somewhere.
Secular culture has no room to criticize church discipline—from Xenos or anyone, even cults! The violent rejection practiced across the world makes almost any Christian discipline look like child’s play.
Here’s an example of church discipline at Xenos:
I have seen Xenos discipline first hand. We had a married lady in our group who was cheating on her husband. She was open about it but refused to stop. She was asked to leave the group. (From the Church Discipline Web site.)
I've never seen this at Xenos--yet!
But Shunning? I know I’m not afraid to see, talk with, greet, or whatever with anyone who got “kicked out”—I’ll ask them if they’ve resolved their “issue” maybe, I’ll ask how it’s going, but I won’t be an idiot and pretend there’s no reason for our broken fellowship. There are significant differences which make it impossible to resume the “old association” and all the trust and shared worlds we once enjoyed.
Well, it happens: people go their separate ways. Is this bad?
What’s bad is when someone wants to go their “separate way” and also demand that everyone else go that way too! That’s when we peacefully, lovingly, gently and patiently start exercising excommunication (in stages, of course, with lots of warnings) as the Bible instructs us—it’s actually beneficial for the person who wants to leave to quit causing trouble and move on.
(And let’s be clear: it’s not an everyday occurrence—not hardly! In the past 15 years at NeoXenos, we’ve excommunicated, I think, two people.)
Mind Control?
Mind Control exercises: their arms were raised like this for 5 hours.
This is one of my favorites, because it’s the Big One. You can really scare people with the “Mind Control” or “Brainwashing” scheme.
It’s also a great way to trash whatever defense we might offer: “You’re talking like someone else is controlling you,” so there’s no need to listen or dialog rationally (nobody can reason with The Brainwashed, after all).
Conspiracy-hunters lead rough lives--nobody believes them.
Plus, we all love a good conspiracy, don’t we? Fox “Spooky” Mulder and Scully have been cashing-in on our penchant for conspiracy since 1990… (“I want to believe!”) So “The Truth is Out There,” for some to find – namely, the “Giant Brain” that ties all the Xenoids together, like the famous Borg in Star Trek.
Normally Dennis is “The Great OZ” behind the curtain (with his ancient turtle), but I’ve recently surpassed Den in Mind-Control fame. (Don’t I get a raise, or a medal?) Read about Den’s astonishing ability to “poison minds” which made it on our Web in northern Ohio! But that’s nothing: I made front-page news as a child-manipulating Mind-Controller (read the hype here).
Thats me--and Im the nice brother!
The most glaring problem with the Mind Control theory is the selection of characters: Den is too is simply too morose and turtle-absorbed to care, and although I’m much warmer and more relational than Den, I’m just too ungifted and goofballish to pull it off. Really, Den is like this aloof intellectual playing with his turtle, and he gets very irritated when people don’t think for themselves (he’s brilliant, you know—and he doesn’t understand why everyone else won’t make the effort to be brilliant too).
Besides, if Xenos has been Mind-Controlling for 30 years now (as one blogger claimed), you’d think the CIA and others would be very jealous and very interested in how it’s done: Xenos is the best! (We’re so damn good, we’ve never been caught, and “they” still don’t know our secret ways after 30 years!)
Manipulating children's minds the secret Xenos way.
The Cult’s Secret
Which brings me back to my original point: I’ve been in Xenos since before the beginning, and if anyone knows the secret reason for the Xenos-Cult phenomena, I would. (Others were there too, of course, but they aren’t telling, and I’ve got a head-start.)
The real Mind-Controller behind it all: Neil Brooks.
But unfortunately, I’ve run out of time! We’ll pick this up next time, I promise!
Additional Information
- There’s no under-age drinking allowed at Xenos. [↩]
oh you crack me up lol
what a let down
hee hee
Hi Keith thank you for the link. I can’t believe the stories on your site regarding newspapers and police complaints. I hadn’t realized the controversy had gone nearly that far.
So since I’m getting an extended review I thought I’d clarify a few points. My interest in Xenos started because of the non membership policy while still being an aggressively disciplining church. There were a lot of complexities legally regarding discipline in non membership churches and with regard to non members and Ohio makes things worse because unlike most states you do have case law restricted certain types of social prohibitions regarding X-members.
Further because of Xenos’ structure (discipline being handled at the small church level) you end up confronting many of the problems of a denomination. So basically my interest wasn’t so much because of the claims but because of the structure. The intro to my Interview with Dennis on discipline starts off with why Xenos is a great case study for my readers.
In terms of the frequency Dennis didn’t object to my characterization of Xenos “practicing discipline frequently” or the questions addressing issues of “policy”. He vetted the entire post for accuracy before publication. If you want to disagree obviously you are a credible counter so I’ll be happy to post any sort of response. I’d also be happy to interview you about Akron if Akron is different. If you don’t discipline much and aren’t the same size (I have no idea how big the Akron church is) you might not make a great discipline case study. But if you are/were having “cult” related problems that would make for a great interview as well (maybe) it might just come off being farcical if you are anything like Columbus.
Most membership disciplining churches are well to Xenos’ right. For example the first person to comment on the interview belonged to a church where women had to hand a note to a male relative if they want to say anything during the service (like a prayer request) due to her church’s interpretation of “I do not permit a woman to speak”. Or another church I deal with frequently has a leader who disciplined (1 year suspension from the church choir) as a young man for dating a woman (adult) without her father’s prior approval. Or to pick a an upcoming post will address a couple excommunicated for demand feeding of an infant.
The other types of discipline are theological disputes between leadership, for example the Federal Vision excommunications in the OPC and PCA, and well you just don’t seem to have those, your church seems too pragmatic. I had to toss out a whole bunch of questions I asked (and planned to ask) Dennis about how these escalated up the chain because they don’t happen in the first place.
As far as shunning, no I don’t confuse shunning and discipline. Xenos’ documentation asks members not to maintain casual social intercourse with the disfellowshiped (its been two years since I read your policy, so I don’t remember the exact phrasing). On the other hand you don’t excommunicate for having this social discourse or make any real attempt to regulate; think of the Jehovah’s Witnesses for a good example of the opposite policy. But those were the sorts of questions I was asking Dennis regarding shunning. Shunning with Ohio churches is a very interesting issue because of the case law regarding the Amish, but this handled so informally (and again membership is in general young so things are less complicated) by Xenos there isn’t much to say.
As you mention you and Dennis have different personalities. Sorry if the interview doesn’t have a “feel” that you agree with. I’m find church law fascinating. The latest discussion I’m involved in is whether it is creedal violation to translate John 1:12 as “right” vs. “power” based on the Latin. So if the church leader is willing to go there I’ll get as formal as they want.
The offer for an interview with you that you would be more comfortable with is open.
“I glance askance and immediately recognize the ugly, mismatched colors used on the Web page: it’s the work of my colorblind brother, Dennis.”
The pot calls the kettle black! Keith, you’re not exactly a fashion plates fashion designer, either!
Haha Joe, u b crayzy. I’m a little colored-blind, but Den’s blind-as-a-bat.
Hi CD, thanks for stopping by!
Wow, those are some amazing stories..I’ve seen some of this stuff: one Holiness church in MI covered-up their pastor’s pedaphilia, told the whistle-blowers to “stop causing trouble.” It’s sick-o, — and sites like yours can provide real hope to such real victims.
That’s why I’m a little surprised to see Xenos listed there among these other rather sick situations. There’s a very good reason why we get maligned, and I’ll blog about that shortly. But I’ll just say this: if you try to make a difference, you’re going to get opposition. If your effort is honorable, by necessity the opposition must fabricate lies, because they can’t find any dirt on you.
Actually, it’s a badge of honor that people who don’t like Christianity must post anonymously; and must invent outrageous & inflammatory charges; and won’t stick around to prove any of it — it means you’re an honorable group, that there is no dirt, that you’re making a real difference.
I asked Den about your comment, above, that Xenos “excommunicates a lot” — he said he said the opposite: that Xenos excommunicates very infrequently. I think there’s some disconnect between you two on this point! (I was a little concerned that maybe they’d become “strict” down there, but I’m sure I would’ve heard/seen some evidence of a change.)
Anyway, I would love to talk with you further. I think you’re meeting a very cool Christian group here, and the huge number of people who’ve been helped out of poverty, shame, tragedy, dispair and many other situations — the population is just very huge. (Currently, there’s about 6k attending weekly between our sites, but also many times that number who’ve moved on to other churches across the nation and arrived already-prepared, trained and educated to be Christian leaders–we don’t keep people, we’re all about sending out.)
Hey, let me add about the “shunning” point — I hope you realize I was criticizing Postmodern society for confusing discipline with shunning; I was referring to Wikipedia’s definition, which extends shunning into every religion’s discipline.
But I do think you’re mis-applying the term to Xenos, because I don’t think anyone’s afraid of “casual contact”. Perhaps you’re referring to the principle Paul laid down in 1 Cor. 5: “Not to even eat with such a one.” That’s the passage we use as our guideline, and it’s a helpful demarcation between casual and intimate fellowship. To “eat with such a one” is indeed “koinonia”, or sharing — “fellowship” in its classic definition. Mealtimes were lengthy, intimate affairs in Hellinized (and Jewish) world; they weren’t fast-food carry-outs.
So, I think the issue of discipline is really very simple: if you’re making a point which necessitates the strong measures of church discipline, then make the point; don’t fellowship with “such-a-one” as Paul says. But don’t go back-and-forth about it: break fellowship/ don’t break it/ break it…it seems a very cruel way to exercise discipline.
I wonder, however, if there’s any room for church discipline in the Postmodern mindset. I’m not saying you’re Postmodern, but I’m asking if you (or your site) make allowances?
Keith –
The interview is meant to reflect his views. I don’t even editorialize in it. He wants a change, send me an email with the change and it goes right up (tell him to use the cd.host@gmail.com address and not the work address he has from 2 years ago). I guess the question would be how many excommunications has Columbus done in say the last decade?
Anyway I cover all sorts of churches. I have (and will do more) articles on the United Methodists so it is not just wicked cults or anything. Don’t freak out that you are listed. And I cover a range of situations like that status of imprimaturs on bibles to rape and kidnapping. My favorites are about the complex cases on church law, the ones that get the most attention are the clear cut ones with sex. Which is why more and more I’m just writing about the bible related issues and the blog is becoming just another bible blog.
I think with all the criticism you may be seeing enemies where they don’t exist. I’m not sure how many ways I can say I like Xenos and I see no evidence of any wrongdoing by the church so far.
As for shunning there are a bunch of points here.
1) Postmodernism and wikipedia. Yes wikipedia is postmodernist in its orientation. That being said many strong social organizations that don’t have recourse to violence utilize social pressures to create conformity. Knowledgeable non conformists are frequently dealt with by isolating them from the main community since otherwise such people can create social pressures for change. In other words shunning is used by Wikipedia to denote a form of religious relational aggression. They define the term, “Shunning is the act of deliberately avoiding association with, and habitually keeping away from an individual or group. It is a sanction against association often associated with religious groups and other tightly-knit organizations and communities.” which strikes me as a reasonable definition. What specifically are you objecting to?
2) Xenos and limiting the extent to eating. I’m not quite clear what your separation policy is. You mention you have had to do 2 excommunications out of your branch so I’m assuming it isn’t tightly constructed. What I will say seems to be the consistent opinion of X-Xenos members was that leaving Xenos meant losing their Xenos friends. People who left “after an incident” (not necessarily discipline) generally lost the friendships from Xenos forever. That does seem to be the case, I heard that one over and over again. Now if that is not intention then there is a real issue you may want to work on because that claim does strike me as the reality on the ground (again mainly speaking about Columbus). So working with the assumption that was a desired behavior, I consider that mild shunning.
Moreover the policy you are outlining seems to support that. Avoid extended social discourse with X-members. Do not relate to them casually.
What in your own words is the desired way that people should related to the excommunicated or persons who left that otherwise would have been disciplined?
3) As far as my sites’ attitude towards church discipline it is supportive of church discipline providing that due process is followed. Just picking a representative article rules for due process, or Why not to keep going. And for members something like How to leave a church.
In other words I’m supportive of discipline done well and unsupportive of it done poorly. I like the catholic and Presbyterian models of cannon law. I could keep going but it might help if you asked a specific question.
Wow! I got quoted! You crack me up. Seriously though, it’s the name. If you guys had picked a name like Clintonville Christian Fellowship then you would have never had this problem. Oh, and you should build a church with stained glass windows, too. I’m glad you are enjoying the blogs. There’s another one, with comments closed now, that went on for 2 years. Den (I’m stealing that) even took some time away from contemplating his turtle to comment.
http://www.byron-harvey.com/2004/03/xenos-christian-fellowship/
Hey CD,
I’m sorry if I indicated in any way that I thought you were antagonistic; far from it, I meant to applaud your efforts to stay objective.
And this blog was never meant to be a review of your work, (although it’s useful to cite the material on your blog). If you read “Part 1″ (Look Ma! I’m famous!), you’ll see I’ve been wanting to write about this stuff once the controversy settled-down.
I fully understand why you’re wrestling with this Xenos-Cult phenomena: this is a unique group, and I’m sure it’s a little confusing.
But I also thought it would be helpful to clarify the “shunning” and “strict” observations — they’re pretty important points I think, don’t you?
So I hope you’re not offended if I clarify those two points? I believe you’ll find we’re probably more “to the left” than you might imagine.
I’ll tell Den to email the clarification.
Hi Icy, your post was also locked in “comment jail” for some reason, so the post date is late.
As a NeoXenos member, if anything during the time I’ve been part of this body of Christ, the last thing you’d accuse the leadership of was being too “strict” or “shunning” people. If anything, our church has been burned by people who’ve taken advantage of the grace and forgiveness offered by the fellowship.
As for the name Xenos, it is strange, but is it possible a strange name alone insights so much persecution? Rather, I think it is the tight-knit nature of Christian community that freaks people out.
CD, here’s my objections to the Wikipedia definition:
Wikipedia says: “Shunning is the act of deliberately avoiding association with, and habitually keeping away from an individual or group.”
First, we could spin that as “Shunning”, or we could call it “Freedom of association”, which is a First-Ammendment right. Frankly, I think even cults should have the right to associate as they see fit.
Not that we are “Shunners” here, but can’t “Shunners” shun if they want to? It’s a Postmodern ethic that nobody should shun anybody. (Unless someone disagrees with the Postmodern ethic, and then they should be shunned, of course!)
In fact, aren’t you advocating “Shunning” of organizations you find distasteful? I’m not saying you’re wrong, mind you, I’m simply saying everybody practices shunning–in every group and every social strata I’ve ever seen.
So if the Wikipedia editors want to make this term “associated with religious groups”, they should at least acknowledge it’s associated with all sorts of group–secular, political, etc.
They’re redefining “Church Discipline” as the a ritual of “Shunning” which is simply inaccurate, and a novel use of “Shunning”.
Also, please re-read my comment #6. I’m not sure why you still think we fear “casual contact”. And in comment #6 I stipulate 1 Cor. 5 which distinguishes intimate from casual contact.
Nobody forces or mandates any change in relationships at Xenos. You already noted that fact earlier. When someone complains, “They don’t treat me like a close friend,” it’s probably because that person “moved on” in some important way.
It’s untrue that Xenos forces or pressures people here to get alienated with their friends. But, if someone wants to “get away” from Xenos, we absolutely respect that desire, and we do not “pursue”.
You’re damned-if-you-do, and damned-if-you-don’t: if people “pursue” relationships when someone’s left, “that’s a cult”. If people don’t “pursue”, then look, “they’re Shunners!”
It’s my experience that anyone who wishes to mend a broken relationship or fellowship can do so if they care to. I’ve never known anyone to be refused who wanted to resolve problems, and we teach strongly against that kind of intentional relational alienation.
So if you’re hearing someone complain they can’t restore relationships, I sure would like to know what’s going on, because it’s not what we teach or condone whatsoever.
Hey CD, I overlooked your question: “What in your own words is the desired way that people should related to the excommunicated or persons who left that otherwise would have been disciplined?”
If someone hasn’t been excommunicated, they haven’t been excommunicated.
Otherwise, I doubt we’re much different than anyone else if someone “moves on” — especially if they “move on” in a rather mean-spirited way. Probably there’s some residual alienation there, which should get clarified, and it’s usually resolved when the parties are willing.
That’s what I’ve seen. There may be exceptions.
Hey CD,
I think I see an apparent disconnect in our conversatino here, as I looked back at your comments… I think you’re asking me about what “Canon” rules we might have about this-or-that, probably because you’re accustomed to more formal groups. But one of our biggest emphasis is that we avoid “institutionalizing” our faith (for lack of a better word).
It’s not like we have a rule-book, and I hope we never do write one. The material from the CPC class you read simply reviews relevant verses pertaining to church discipline as part of a Bible survey.
But if there was a rule I could cite which (hopefully) governs our behavior towards people attending / not attending / once attending Xenos, it should be this: “Owe no many anything except love from the heart” (Apostle Paul, Epistle to the Romans).
OK good so the issue of quantity is going to get fixed. The interview has Dennis’ claim regarding shunning without my comments (i.e. I don’t inject my thoughts into the answers). The interview answer gives Dennis’ definition of shunning and based on this definition why he believes Xenos doesn’t shun. So in terms of accuracy we are OK.
Now the reason I think Xenos does shun (mildly) is I’m rejecting his definition. I definition in Wikipedia which you are calling “free association” is IMHO a correct definition. For example just a few days ago France criticized the US for “shunning” the UN racism conference site.
In terms of whether there should be shunning I haven’t come out against it. What I have tried to discuss effects of various forms of shunning. For example that it maintains connectedness. If you want a strong pro shunning voice, Johnathan Edwards Nature and purpose. So yes I’m expanding the definition of shunning but not assigning it the negative connotations you are.
I also disagree that wikipedia defines church discipline to be shunning. They have an article on church discipline where they define it as, “Church discipline is a response of an ecclesiastical body to some perceived wrong, whether in action or in doctrine. Its most extreme form in modern churches is excommunication where the offender is banished from the church community until such time as he or she repents or recants.” I would disagree with that being the most extreme form but you can see they aren’t defining the two too be the same thing.
As for as Xenos having a policy of forcing people to separate from friends, “move on” to use your terms. No I don’t believe they do. For example there are 0 claims of people being disciplined for refusing to shun someone out there. As far as it being common practice, yes I do think it is. I’ve heard too many times from too many different people. If you don’t want that to be practice at Xenos you may want to address why it is happening. If you still consider me objective, then this is what I’m observing. Sorry. This might be worth addressing at small church groups one week and getting feedback from the small church leaders to see if the membership does believe this is going on regularly.
E who is responding to you on my blog is an X Xenos person who I believe experienced this. He/she has also indicated they know lots of people this happened to.
Brian Gardner (real name I think, bgsaxman@gmail.com) was at least current last year and indicated he had to step in several times to stop this prior to excommunications (as well as practicing it after). He also indicated it was an ongoing problem for the restored in the HS age group; just to pick a current member in good standing. Now don’t get me wrong he was defending Xenos talking about how institution was acting to try and block this behavior pattern but he didn’t disagree it was part of the Xenos culture. I could point you to more examples all over the internet.
This problem may not be fixable. What makes Xenos special is that it creates a social network which is engaging and fun, “tight knit” to use Joe’s phrase. Leave Xenos (as a kid) you leave the network and thus lose the friends. This doesn’t seem to happen to people over college age. I guess the question is:
1) Do you think it is worth investigating to find out if it is happening?
2) If it is happening do you want to fix it if the cost is low?
3) If fixing it required breaking other things would it be worth it?
I can’t answer those questions. Those are for you and Dennis.
One more thing. In checking back i notice the Edwards link is not working:
Nature and Purpose
should be correct.
Very well-considered replies, CD. Thanks for taking the time on this.
I’m 100% committed with my life to protecting the unprotected and healing the wounded; I’m absolutely committed to sharing the love of Christ with everyone and anyone willing to listen.
If someone feels mistreated or unfairly castigate by anyone in NeoXenos — even someone excommunicated — I would love to understand & address their grievances.
I do know that Christians and Christian communities can be just as ugly as anything in the World System. What makes Christian fellowship truly unique is the presence of forgiveness, grace, and the sacrificial love to mend the wounded. (cf. Luke 4 and Christ’s charter…)
What I am saying is that I’m unaware of any outstanding hurtful and wrongful rejections or “shunning”. Anyone who feels alienated and wishes they weren’t will have a very open audience with me, for one, and I’m quite sure the others I know would back me up on this claim.
But the “complaint” I’ve heard before goes something like this: “Why recoil from me simply because I’m attacking you? Don’t you love me?” Christians are sacrificial, but not dumb–it seems unrealistic and infantile to expect anyone to submit to this treatment.
What you don’t know, CD, is that I was excommunicated once from Xenos, so I know how it feels. I was dragging young, new, troubled kids into drugs (LSD, weed, pills) when they came to this fellowship. I was repeatedly warned. I pretended to be “outraged” (Hitler said, “If you lie, you need to tell a big one” or something like that.)
I was outraged by my excommunication. Naturally, I sought allies, and several people left Xenos to maintain their relationships with me. Naturally, I lied in order to frame myself as the victim, and Xenos as the big-bad monster (people always love the underdog, you know).
However, their compassion for me was rewarded with destruction from my unhealthy (and disguised) hatred and drugs.
When I finally decided to “tell the truth”, I found it was incredibly easy to build & rebuild relationships with others–including Xenos people.
I’m not saying it’s impossible that we’ve wronged someone. Most likely we have. All I’m saying is I’m currently unaware of anyone with such a complaint which hasn’t been resolved (we have resolved wrongful/hurtful alienation more than once before).
Here’s the most important point I wish to emphasize: even when someone is excommunicated, they are much-beloved and earnestly prayed-for almost daily.
We would never teach or support hateful alienation–it contradicts everything we teach and know about Jesus Christ.
And one vital followup point: tens of thousands of people have come & gone through our “Xenos doors” , and many, many left because they disagreed (especially people from ritualistic or traditional church backgrounds tend not to enjoy our scene).
And all these 10’s of thousands of people left in a civil, decent manner and still maintain strong ties with various individuals here, and they’re able to speak fondly of us even though they could cite reason(s) to spite us.
You probably know more than I do about how many are really upset with us; but I’m sure they’re in the vast minority.
Why the inconsistency? Most likely, it’s either: a) a misunderstanding which should get cleared-up; or b) someone working like I once did (less-than-straightforward), or c) an isolated and unnoticed mistreatment underway, which we should know about. (Maybe there’s other possibilitllies, but I’ll just stop there.)
Gozer –
(Are you Dennis?) Assuming so, you made it pretty clear in the interview you rather ad-hoc. Also the very high burden of proof addresses most of my concerns with not having clear law. But IMHO not writing down doctrines doesn’t mean you don’t have them it just means you haven’t formalized them.
@Joe: I have a dry sense of humor. Please re-read my post using the tongue-in-cheek font.
@Keith, comment #12. Freedom of association. Nobody at Xenos has ever told me who I can hang out with and who I can’t. Quite honestly, I’d tell them to kiss my behind if they did. However, there are some former (and current) members that I have freed from association with me. I would like to associate with all of them again but that will take time and effort on both our parts.
CD “This problem may not be fixable. What makes Xenos special is that it creates a social network which is engaging and fun, “tight knit” to use Joe’s phrase. Leave Xenos (as a kid) you leave the network and thus lose the friends.
I think I agree with this and I think my comments on your blog reflect that. I walked away from a group of hard partying friends when I had kids and quit anesthetizing myself several times a week. They don’t invite me to parties on Saturday anymore and they are not very interested in coming to a teaching on Sunday morning or to my home church on Thursday, either. I’m pissed off at some of them for calling me a Jesus freak and some of them are pissed off at me for calling them alcoholics.
Keith: “If someone feels mistreated or unfairly castigate by anyone in NeoXenos — even someone excommunicated — I would love to understand & address their grievances.”
You’ve reached out to AnneMarie over and over, requesting that she find neutral clergy to mediate. I don’t know what more you can do to show a willingness to reconcile those who have been wronged. I should note that she does espouse Catholic faith so neutral clergy should suffice. A secular counselor could be in order if the aggrieved party does not believe in Christ.
Keith –
Keith: But the “complaint” I’ve heard before goes something like this: “Why recoil from me simply because I’m attacking you? Don’t you love me?” Christians are sacrificial, but not dumb–it seems unrealistic and infantile to expect anyone to submit to this treatment.
Let me give you an example where this doesn’t have to come off as an attack. 19 year old guy X is active in Xenos. He gets involved with a girl and it gets sexual. He decides he likes the relationship and wants to go to a church which is going to be indifferent to fornication (he probably doesn’t phrase it that way, but you get the idea). He leaves Xenos and finds that his Xenos friends aren’t friendly anymore. He hasn’t really attacked Xenos, other than rejecting their understanding of sexuality; but he has left the fellowship. I think that is the sort of situation that happens. And now the guy is married so the underlying sin is gone but when Xenos shows up on some board and the topic of cult like behavior comes up, he defends Xenos as not being a cult but does mention his experience that they are really insular and once you are out you are out. Just an example.
You mention people from liturgical backgrounds, that might be a very good group to sample statistically. There is no sin issue from Xenos perspective in attending a liturgical church so it separates off the discipline aspects from the insular aspects. Pick the last 100 have someone (can’t be you) call them up and ask them some interview questions about whether they did see a break in the fellowship once they returned to a liturgical environment. Obviously do the survey in a way that they are going to feel comfortable giving the person doing this a yes, asking the same question 5 different ways and telling them its anonymous… That’s a really good subgroup! If one or two say they noticed it then it isn’t really a problem. If 15 say it happened you likely have an issue, if 40 of them say it happened then you know there is a structural issue you may want to address.
As an aside, I can tell you I think the level of criticism of Xenos (again Columbus) is well below what most mega churches experience. I know you are going to have a tough time believing that. I give you and Dennis credit for that. Pick any other 10 mega church leaders at random and read the attack articles they get.
As for grace being present in Christian communities, that was never my experience as a Christian. Remember you spent a lot of time in a rather unique piece of the Christian experience. I do find it plausible that Xenos might very have that. You have the sorts of characteristics that make it possible, starting with a genuine humility of leaders and a belief in grace over legalism.
Icy –
AnneMarie could go to non neutral clergy. Heck, if she had talked to her own clergy he would have told her about a conditional baptism which Keith would have been willing to perform (I assume), “If you are not yet baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” and then he isn’t sinning (at least as far as the baptism goes) from a Catholic perspective either. Which as far as I understand is what set off this whole storm.
AnneMarie’s claims are (at least from anything I read) indefensible.
“The greatness of the lie is always a certain factor in being believed; at the bottom of their hearts, the great masses of a people are more likely to be misled than to be consciously and deliberately bad, and in the primitive simplicity of their minds, they are more easily victimized by a large than by a small lie…. Some part of even the boldest lie is sure to stick.” – Adolf Hitler.
That’s what makes a smear campaign so effective. “Any argument where you bring in Hitler, you automatically lose.” I first heard this quote from a girl being interviewed by Ira Glass on the “This American Life” podcast, “This I Used to Believe”, on April 17th. My teenagers have confirmed that this is so. I think this extends upward to the mid 20s.
I’m not sure if this will help understanding or hinder it. If it helps, great, if not, ignore it.
Speaking for myself, if I had a relationship in which a close Christian brother decided to move away philosophically from the teaching and instruction of Xenos, that could only be manifested experientially. (If I don’t speak against it, I’m not being loving!) If, after several times of trying to talk with them about their struggles (or apathy) they made it clear they were not interested in any kind of restoration or spiritual progress, my advice to them as a friend and as a fellow Christian would be to leave fellowship.
This is not because I would perceive their behavior as wrong in regards to Xenos’ teachings and way of doing things.
It is because I would perceive their behaviour as in direct violation of biblical standards of Christian life.
There needs to be a consequence when a Christian is deliberate in unrepentance and dogmatic in assertions that contradict clear biblical moral norms. In that state, a Christian has the potential to be the progenitor of a most unloving and depraved life.
(Do not think I am implying that I would leave no doors open for redress or reconcliation. God reconciled us to Himself, I believe He wants us to be open to reconciliation between each other as well.)
Personally, I am not so interested in what Xenos has to teach about how to live as a Christian if the instruction is incorrect when measured against Scripture.
Xenos is not the final authority, Scripture is. And Xenos teaches that.
@Icy: thanks for the Adolf Hitler quote — I’ve had to deal with this more than once! Also, I really appreciate your comments, thanks!
@CP: Dude, “He leaves Xenos and finds that his Xenos friends aren’t friendly anymore.” I think Icy did a pretty good job of depicting the nature of this problem. I doubt your guy ever tried reaching out to his old friends, or more likely, it wasn’t such a sweet “parting of the ways”…
Whatever the case, it’s always complicated to understand how someone is viewing their old Christian group when they leave like that, especially if they aren’t explaining themselves.
We see the opposite problem up here: a girl came into our group, grabbed a guy and took off into a sex-thing. Her old Xenos friends would say, “Hi” and try to extend some friendship, and this girl went running into the principle’s office crying hysterically: “Tell them to leave me alone! They won’t let me go! They won’t let me leave!” Naturally we got a call from the police on the matter.
It turned out that she wanted to get into another school where her “partying friends” were partying, and she pulled off the transfer this way.
I’ve got an interview with some of these students which I’ll be posting soon. It does a good job of framing the problem, I think.
But here’s the bottom-line on why you’ll see controversy here: about 80% of our people come from non-Christian backgrounds. That means we’re doing tons of outreach. For every one who stays and matures as a Christian, probably 10-20 don’t.
Any church which reaches out to the secular realm like this is going to run across tons of issues. That’s why churches typically don’t do it. We try to resolve the issues as they arise, but it doesn’t matter: resolve one and there’s another dozen. It’s the nature of the beast. I’ve been doing Christian work now for decades, and groups like Young Life, Campus Crusade, Youth for Christ and others doing this kind of work are constantly getting dirt thrown in their faces, and the dirt is the same kind. I’m not saying this with indifference, because we’re always doing whatever to try and reconcile and heal. Most often a problem remains outstanding simply because the one feeling offended isn’t interested in resolving it.
Like I say, I’m aware of nobody feeling hurt by us who’s trying to communicate about it (throwing slur-words at us through the press isn’t really communication).
hey keith, am I one of the two people excommunicated?
well anyway hey cd i’m trying to get up to speed with all these blogs but here i come to enter the fray. weeeeee
well cd i started comming around in 2001 (21yrs old then) to neoxenos as a basicly a day old christian. i got saved at an alter call and God led me to a xenos member that night and two weeks later to fellowship, service whatever you want to call it, i’ll call it home! anywho, while there i actually came to know the Lord and His word.
fast forward two years, i’m involved with working with jh students and a start having se with a non- christian college girl. i was exposed by God and admitted to it. i was asked many times to stop having sex. i was told this not because it was against the rules but rather because they loved me and wanted to save me from the damgae i would inflict on myself by being in sin and rebeling against God and not the church. sins are against God. well, after being warned by many people who loved me, including keith i did not stop and was asked to leave the ministry house i was at (i am assuming you, cd, know what a ministry house is since you have investigated xenos.) and i did leave. about a week or two later the people who loved me in xenos were to have a meeting with me to talk to me about what i was into with this girl and to share there love and biblical insight on why it needed to stop and if i would not stop i would be excommunicated. i did not show up to this meeting because i’m a feelings oriented and emotional little guy, i like to cuddle too and take long walks on the beach, whoops i forgot what i was writing about. i am emotional and i couldnt face the hurt i was going to inflict on them, or i might have gone there and faked repentance and gotten back into sex a week later. so whether i left or was excommunicated i dont know but i was not suppossed to come to meetings or try to pull people away(watch out for those millstones).
so after recieving a few years of nothing but love and ample time and patience to repent i said see ya. some of my brothers in Christ would try to hang out with me, they came to my house and try to talk, they showed up at parties i was at. this pissed me off that they were doing this because they were still loving me and trying to reconcile me to God also, how dare they. i was mad also because my rebelion was in my face i couldn’t hid it in my mind or minipulate my mind because the evidence was in my face. i finally told the to “leave me the fuck alone”, and they did.
i saw a bunch of them on halloween in 2003 and they were nothing but happy to see me and wanted me to come back. they asked me how things were going, but mostly they missed me, they wanted me to come home. they didn’t judge me for what i had done or the fact that i was pretty drunk while this was taking place. a few guys called me and wanted to get together to talk and we did. they said i should come back. so i walked into a bible study one night and they asked me to not stay but to get together and talk with the leaders about whats going on with me. i was pissed and still unrepentent so i blew it off and went home. a couple days later keith calls me up to see if i really wanted to come back and i didn’t so it was left at that. but here you see keith following up on the initial intrest of mine to come back keith was ready to reconcile with me if i had or would repent that was his position the whole time. a few monthes later in june i had repented and wanted to come back i made a call and we met that night my home group leader and keith and they wanted to know if i had repented, i did and they welcomed me back with open arms that very night and so did everyone in the whole fellowship. i was home finaly, and have been since and they even let me teach at homegroups and work with students, i am grateful, thank you God!
so, i ask you cd does that sound like shunning?
my brothers and sisters in Christ were not prohibited from talking to me rather i pushed them away because they reminded me of my sin. i wonder if any of these complainers from columbus actually did this and distanced themselves from the body of Christ. maybe they did not do it the way i did but you see, when your in sin you dont see things the right way alot of the time. harboring bitterness is destructive also and if they havent dealt with that it could also cast a cloud on the truth or reality of the situation or account. also when you are in sin you dont really want to hang with the same people anyway. wont they keep bringing up the fact that you are acting like a fool and pointing out that things arent just peachy and that you are not right with God? it would be an unloving thing if God’s children didn’t do this. my brothers and sisters did that for me. so, out of this love someone talks to you about where you are at with God while in the midst of unrepentent sin, after a while you will want to put some distance between them and you. you wont want to here that all the time. but you will here it often in rebellion because it is such an important thing in ones life, that is, to be in right standing before the Lord. and a truelly loving body of Christ won’t just sweep your rebellion and sin under the rug and pretend its not there. the dynamic of the relationship has changed.
i dont know how the columbi (that’s xenos columbus) do it but up here i think it has been handled well. my experience was always redemptive, approachable, humble, nonjudgemental and reconciliatory with neoxenos and they are still this way.
i also wonder if these complainers have tried to contact their old friends or are they just complaining? i’m pretty positive that if someone who was in sin no matter how long or short, if they tried to initiate with a xenoid, columbi are neo they would be met with love.
o, and cd, keith is also gozer. den is to busy with mr turtle to talk with us up here.
ttfn- wonder out
An interesting story, Wonder. Thanks for having the humility to share it.
No, I didn’t think of you as ever being “excommunicated”, per se — obviously you left on your own accord, and we never really went the whole 9-yards, which was fine, and cool.
I think CD is raising questions about someone exactly like you. You would be a very good example of what it’s like when someone “leaves fellowship” if there’s been significant moral issues. It’s a complicated thing, because love necessitates taking strong stands, but love also necessitates grace. The two are difficult to juggle. Apparently you don’t feel wronged, however, and that’s wonderful to hear!
Wonder –
Thank you for sharing.
Sounds like they handled it very well, did a great job of restoration a classic well handled case. Genuine attempts at restorations without being alienating. Nice to see. I’ve said before I think Xenos handles discipline well and they have about the worst possible population imaginable for doing it with.
As for your question as to whether that is shunning, no it is not by any definition of shunning. Generally people who self excommunicate to that extent don’t face the same level of shunning as those who try and remain. You didn’t want to stay friendly, with anyone so you didn’t present a problem.
Anyway a story about a well handled discipline case, thanks again for sharing.
Any church which reaches out to the secular realm like this is going to run across tons of issues. That’s why churches typically don’t do it.
Keith, you are being far to generous. It much simpler than that. The cost per new member for someone from a non Christian background (doesn’t attend church more than 2x yr, non christian religion, atheist…) is about 40x what it is for a regular attender. If you are trying to run a “growth church” it is just too expensive to bring in non Christians, the way to church growth is by getting people from struggling congregations.
Of course to make it worse you also go after the young, who have no money, so even if you get them they aren’t going to tithe enough to pay for their outreach. You just don’t understand the great commission at all
Acts 57:38 clearly indicates that outreach is supposed to be a profit center and you go and make disciples based on discretionary income.
In all Seriousness though, you and Dennis should publish a book for lead pastors or outreach pastors on how you do as much recruiting as you do as cheaply as you do it. I still have no idea why Xenos isn’t hemorrhaging red ink.
Thank-you so much for your kindness, CD. Your humor is appreciated.
As for the $$, well let’s just say nobody’s getting rich from this business. I’ve had to take serious pay cuts. Right now I’m living in a motel because my house burned down. It’s a rough life, but it’s also very much worthwhile to see the new life that comes out of it.
I’m really trying to mix-it-up with some of the folk visiting your site, and there’s some turnaround that I can see of their hostilities. When people get hostile, I think they lose sight of what’s truly valuable. There may be problems here (especially having so many from secular backgrounds who bring some luggage along), but there’s certainly a willingness to correct real problems (as opposed to the “Grand Conspiracy Mind-Control” problems which simply don’t exist).
Thanks for taking the time with us. I know you’re busy.
One last thing, CD: we are writing a book just like you’re proposing, over at the NeoZine. It’s called “Seditious Christianity”. Here’s the URL: http://neozine.org/inside/seditious-christianity/